Episode Details

Chris Marhefka is the CEO and Facilitator at Training Camp for the Soul and the Founder and Facilitator of the Embodied Man Community and Retreats. He facilitates life-changing experiences in emotional healing, inner-child work, somatic experiencing, breathwork, masculine embodiment, relationship and communication coaching, men’s development, and leadership mentoring.

Connect with Chris here:

Website: trainingcampforthesoul.com
Instagram: @chrismarhefka
Facebook: @trainingcampforthesoul

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Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Clément: Help me out and, uh, with a little explanation of like who you are and what you’re up to and what you’ve built. 

[00:00:06] Chris: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Um, I’m Chris . I consider myself a, a leader, a coach, a facilitator and entrepreneur. Um, I have been a lifelong learner. Uh, I would consider myself to have a growth mindset for sure from the earliest I can remember.

[00:00:27] And so I was always developing in something and for a large majority of my life, that was my physical body and my health. I got really into competitive athletics and then training and, um, all sorts of different competitive activities with my body. And then that actually cross me over into the world of mindset coaching, because you’d really, really reach the perceived limits of the box.

[00:00:52] And then you just turn the notch one more in your mind. And then all of a sudden abracadabra, you have more capacity. So I got really into high performance mindset, um, and all the while I was doing it and experimenting on myself, I was also teaching and coaching others to do it. So I’ve been a coach for a very long time, about 15 years.

[00:01:12] And, um, and then I got to the point where I was doing this really high level coaching and even doing business coaching and CEOs and entrepreneurs. And then we would get to the point to where the mind would get to it’s almost like capacity conscious capacity. And then we would, um, we would keep circling back to the same things in the conscious mind.

[00:01:35] And then that’s when I discovered the work that I do now, which is a little bit of, uh, a kind of woo in the world of personal development, but it’s like what’s happening below the surface of what we can actually see. Here experience think about, and these are the unconscious patterns that we all have.

[00:01:54] The unconscious beliefs that we all have. And what I focus on with people is identifying what are the things that are holding you back in life, these beliefs that are running the show and then teaching people how to systematically pull them out from the root and then replace them with something that does serve them.

[00:02:13] And it’s really powerful work because everyone has them to accent. We’re all limited by some ceiling. It’s just a matter of which ceiling and how much are we aware of that ceiling? 

[00:02:25] Clément: Yeah. Oh, wow. That sounds great. By the way. Um, it seems like your most likely much more advanced than a lot of that stuff, which I’m excited to talk to you about it.

[00:02:34] The growth mindset thing. I had that from a very young age. I’m 38 now. And I remember, but the thing I want to say is I didn’t have it since I was born. Like, I, I, I, I was in the matrix almost, and then something happened. I, it was my ex one of my ex-girlfriends that was with this lady at the time. And she was really hot on things like Anthony Robbins and, um, Dale Carnegie and, um, it’ll old school, personal development gurus.

[00:03:08] And she introduced me to that along with the spiritual aspect, which was at the time Eckhart taller and, uh, um, grace and grit guy, Ken Wilber. And I just really loved that. You know, I mean, I, I thought it was like an eyeopening. It just really cracked through this layer of opaqueness that I couldn’t see behind it broke straight through it.

[00:03:32] And all of a sudden this new world opened up to me and it’s such a liberating feeling for someone who wasn’t always aware of it. And so were you, you, you said you were like kind of born, like you’ve 

[00:03:43] Chris: always been, yeah, that’s a really great distinction because I was born with this like drive to get better at things, but I wasn’t really aware of, of anything deeper.

[00:03:53] I didn’t really understand personal development until I was. High school. Actually, I had a little bit of a rich dad, poor dad, situation myself with, um, and it wasn’t all necessarily related to money, but a lot of it was at one of my best friends. His parents, um, were very much into personal development, same thing, like, uh, the, the Zig Ziglar’s and the Tony Robbins and, and, um, yeah, a lot of the just old school, like inspirational motivational.

[00:04:24] They gave me the secret. They gave me rich dad, poor dad, richest man of Babylon, like all these like really old time tested books. And I just dove right into that world. And from that time from when I was about in high school to, um, probably. 30 years old, 28, 29. I was in the information consumption phase of personal development, where I was just taking it all in going to the seminars, listening to the podcast.

[00:04:55] And that is when actually that broke me out of the go to school, get a good job and just work until you retire mindset into entrepreneur mindset. Those books were what kind of broke me out of that, um, place that I was in. And then that, that took me, uh, through about, uh, 11 year process of entrepreneurship when it was all about me getting better for my business.

[00:05:24] So everything was about like working on me, but so that my business could be better. So it was maybe better communication with employees or better leading or better, um, setting strategy or marketing. And, uh, I, I, like I said, I, I grew a lot in that way. And that was really intentional growth. And, but it was always cognitive.

[00:05:46] It was always like, okay, if I do this, then I’ll get this result. And then it was this a, to B all the time. And I had to like, understand that it wasn’t until, like I said, I got into this stuff that was below the surface. They started to really understand what was driving me. And what I mean by that is like there was layer layer, layer, layer, layer, deep, this experience that I had as a child that caused me to not trust other people fully.

[00:06:13] And so that was playing out with my, uh, with my wife that was playing out with all of my employees and my management. And so I would trust how old were you when you got married? Uh, I was actually 29, 29. And so, um, I had, uh, a period of about a decade to where I was. All in on growing businesses. Um, I was an entrepreneur and like, that was priority.

[00:06:39] Number one, I did meet my wife during that time and we did get married, but it was like, my mind was all in business. Um, and it reached, it was actually right around my 30th birthday. When I had this realization that I had checked all the boxes of the goals. I had set the money, the family, the career, the community, the, the impact.

[00:07:05] But it didn’t feel the way that I thought it would feel. And it was like this, like almost like crushing conflicting moment where from the outside looking in, everyone was like, oh, your life is so great. Like congratulations on all your achievements. But internally I was like, what the hell is wrong with me?

[00:07:24] I don’t feel fulfilled. I don’t feel like happy. I don’t feel excited about waking up in the morning. And those were all things that I thought would come as a result of the achievements. And then once I, again, I started peeling back the layers. I found that there were things that were much deeper. There were causing me to not feel fulfilled, to not feel happy, to not feel satisfied with the achievement and just bumping to the next achievement and the next achievement.

[00:07:51] And so once I, I shifted and healed those things that were underneath the surface, the same actions would result in a different experience for me. So I could hit a goal today and I’ll celebrate it. I’ll enjoy it. I’ll revel in it. Like, I’ll appreciate it. So I still set those goals, but it’s from a different energy.

[00:08:12] It’s from a growth and getting better from that instead of back then. Most of my goals were because I felt like I wasn’t enough. It was like, well, I’ve got to set these physical goals. Cause I don’t feel like I’m fit enough or good. Looking enough. I’ve got to set these business goals because look at what’s so-and-so over there is doing, they just raised a million dollars.

[00:08:32] I got to go raise a man look at. And, but it never ends. Right. It’s like, 

[00:08:36] Clément: you’re that you’ve addressed the cause. So it’s no longer something that’s that you need to feed. 

[00:08:44] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:08:45] Clément: I went through something really similar eerily similar. We could say. I mean, uh, well there was a time when, um, I was in, uh, you know, masterminds and if don’t someone listening, doesn’t know what a mastermind is, basically a group of high achievers, right.

[00:09:02] Who want to achieve more. And so they help each other. Do more business and make more connections and, uh, generally grow. And so in those groups, what I found was there’s, there’s like a, kind of like a prevailing energy of just, I’m not enough around most, mostly men, but there’s women in there too, but it’s mostly men.

[00:09:24] I mean, it’s a, it’s a male thing, I think for the most part. And we can probably talk about that, but, um, you know, let’s just say it’s a, it’s a masculine thing. And, um, you know, it really makes a lot of sense to me when you come to the conclusion that, uh, you can have the same goals, but if you’re being driven by a feeling of lack, you are going to be in for a rude awakening when you finally get there, because it’s still lives in you, you know, the, the lack is still there.

[00:09:54] You haven’t changed anything. It’s like giving a Lamborghini to someone who is just so insecure about themselves. I mean, take the Lamborghini away from them. It’s like captain America, he took the suit away. Who are you? The psyche take the Lamborghini away. Who the hell am I? You know, um, same person you were before.

[00:10:10] If not, you probably even worse now because you’ve already had the Lamborghini now you feel even worse. So, uh, I went through a strange transformation and, and it’s not easy, man. It’s, uh, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a very, and vulnerability is something that I wanted to talk to you about. Cause I’ve watched some of the content you create on your profile on Instagram.

[00:10:29] And a lot of it is about like addressing these false tropes, these stereotypes that are kind of, for lack of a better word, toxic. I don’t really like that word, but they are toxic. And somehow they’ve kind of become part of that self-development narrative right now where, you know, everything has to be plush.

[00:10:50] Everything has to be like, AOK positive. Nothing’s wrong here. Let’s not talk about it. And, and I, and I, and I get it. I totally get it, but I think. I think you have to be really vulnerable and open to the full spectrum of human emotion and consequences and circumstances, to be able to make that kind of distinction where you say, you know what, I’m going to take a look deep inside and find out what the fuck is actually really going on with me.

[00:11:20] And if it’s going to hurt like hell, because I’m going to have to confront the fact that I haven’t accomplished these things, or I didn’t do this when I, you know, when I thought I should have, or I haven’t worked on this part of me and all of that is kind of like reaffirming to the ego that you’re just not enough, but it’s also part of the cure to get to the point where you don’t have to feel that way anymore.

[00:11:42] Um, so, 

[00:11:44] Chris: so yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, I, the word that was coming to me, it’s just realness, like showing people the realness of humanity and the realness of humanity. Isn’t always on top of the mountain and, and sunshine and rainbows. And, um, I think there’s usefulness. If you’re in the deepest, darkest depression to wanting to be happy, like, I think there’s some usefulness to that, like that glimmer, glimmer of hope.

[00:12:14] But once you’re out of that, then you really have to address the what’s underneath. And so I always say like, there’s things that are really effective to light the spark that are not as effective to make the transformation. And a lot of people will go through the development world with a lot of sparks and they’re just looking for the next spark, the next experience, the next speaker, the next quotable meme to give them a spark for a moment.

[00:12:43] And, um, I did that for a very long time, so I understand it. And I have a lot of compassion for it, but there’s a next, there’s a, okay. Now once we’re have the spark now, what do we do to fuel the fire and to. Um, really, really transform who we really are so that we’re not just repeating and getting another spark the next day and the next day and the next day, then the different method.

[00:13:13] Clément: Right. And you’ve kind of like alluded to the point where, uh, you know, maybe what you do in between critical events is actually more important than what happens during those events. It’s like the sharpening of the saw it’s like the it’s like the, the Spartans, uh, training protocol. It’s like, you know, Michael Jordan’s overnight success.

[00:13:35] It’s really all of the things that lead up to that key moment that you’ve been working on. And when you look at MMA fighters, you can like, I’ll use an example. So Connor McGregor used to be like the greatest of all time, right. And in his weight division and he was unstoppable. And then he, when you get to a certain degree of success and you go and you, you, you dilute your focus with, um, his whiskey company and his other responsibilities.

[00:14:04] And then you come back, you’ve lost all of that sharpening of the saw and you lose, you can’t win anymore because the other person’s just that much higher than you now in terms of his performance. So, 

[00:14:15] Chris: yeah. And the, and they’re the ones that are sharpening the sword, the people that are attending the craft and doing the thing.

[00:14:21] And so from that analogy is like, people’s themselves, they’re being, this has to be the sword, like constantly sharpening that, especially if you’re in a phase of transformation or if you’re leaning into change, or if you’re wanting change in your life, you really have to put the focus on that. It’s not a passive activity.

[00:14:40] It’s not, it’s like, it’s like physical training. I use these examples all the time. Cause I spent, um, half or more of my lifetime in this world. It’s just like training your body is like, You don’t go into the gym one day, do a few squats and be like, where’s the development in my butt? Like what, where’s the results?

[00:15:01] No, you go in, you trust the process and you do it and you do the same thing the next day. You do the same thing the next day you do the same thing. And then one day you looking like, wow, I’m so much stronger. I’m fitter, I’m leaner. I’m whatever the goal and outcome is. But it’s the same thing with our development, our emotional development or mental development.

[00:15:21] It’s the, what you do when no one’s watching. It’s the, what you do when you wake up in the morning, it’s the, what you do when you feel like not wanting to do the thing, you do it anyway. And you practice those things that you know, are good for you. And, um, it’s, it’s I say it with a lot of like simplicity, but it’s not easy for people because when we are feeling the worst and the thing would be the most useful is the last time we would want to do the thing.

[00:15:50] Clément: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. This is the question that I have actually is like, if it’s the most important thing to do the, the, the, the everyday work and you’re not like, okay, there’s a power in having ego, because you’re always fueled. You’re always fueled. Like, you can always convince yourself that it’s not enough.

[00:16:12] There’s something else. You need to do something else you need to achieve or be loved for. So when you lose that and you come at it from a different mentality, you come at it from a kind of like, I’m doing this because I enjoy the process because I want to be better for other people. Not because I want other people to love me more, but then it’s a different fuel.

[00:16:28] It’s like, it’s not as, it’s not as brute force. I think it’s it’s. How would you explain that? How do you do it sharpening the sore when you’re not being fueled by 

[00:16:37] Chris: insecurity? Yeah. It’s. Those are, those are, I would say it’s almost like we just explained the first two of the three phases is that a lot of people are in that phase where they almost need the ego to push them, to do the thing for the first time.

[00:16:54] And that’s, that’s, that’s the first step that’s like, the leap is like, okay, I’m going to make a change. I’m going to go hire a personal trainer. I’m gonna go hire a coach. I’m going to go clean up my diet. I’m gonna read this, uh, start journaling, whatever the thing is, but it’s that ego bump. And then now they’re in the practice.

[00:17:11] And that part is I’m trying to like, I’m trying to pay attention to people and see the difference between the people that do it and the people that don’t. And the only correlation that I’ve seen is the people that will do it with this work. They’ve had practice in something else. So what I mean by that is maybe they were, they learned how to play the violin.

[00:17:38] Is it. And they picked up the violin every day and they just played it just a little bit. Didn’t matter what the outcome was. They were, they were always getting better just by picking it up or maybe it was on the soccer field. They would, they would go out and they would practice every day. And then maybe after practice, they would go for a little run on their own to get more fit.

[00:17:59] It’s those people that have had a practice of repetition without, um, it’s almost like without immediate purpose, they do well with that second phase. And if people haven’t had it in their past, it’s going to take some level of structure support, um, or. Those are probably the two, the starting from scratch kind of 

[00:18:29] Clément: as opposed to already having some muscles to be able to.

[00:18:32] Chris: Exactly. And so I had that, I was a lifelong athlete and I understood what training was like. And so when I did this work, it was just like, okay, I’m just going to do the thing they’re telling me to journal every day. I’ll just journal every day. And so if people don’t have that, I think that’s where structure and support are so valuable is because it literally gives you that container to.

[00:18:58] To, um, not want to do it. And they’re like a coach, like a coach on a sports team is like, Nope, we’re going to practice say anyway, oh, I know you’re a little tired. We’re still, we’re still going to do something. Um, and that 

[00:19:10] Clément: legitimately be younger people, right? Because of the fact that older people have had like a career they’ve had like some kind of discipline that’s necessary, younger people that are just coming into things.

[00:19:20] And they, you know, they’re plagued by social media and consumption of like, you know, just that dopamine effect of the instant pleasure. I see that as a huge problem. I don’t know about you, but I know that delayed gratification is the biggest, you know, uh, identifier of success in life. And so without that, which is basically what happens when you, you get addicted to, you know, instant gratification.

[00:19:47] I think, uh, I think we’re in for a bit of a challenging time to try and help people get back on track. Um, What are your thoughts about all of this with the younger generations? 

[00:19:58] Chris: Yeah. Um, I think it’s, it definitely has a lot to do with what they grew up with of technology and the speed of it and instant gratification in that way.

[00:20:08] And literally things are designed to manipulate our internal systems and they’re doing a really good job of it. And so it’s almost like people like the human biology doesn’t have a chance against Instagram. It doesn’t like we’re not designed for that much stimulus. And so, um, my thoughts are that, yeah, we, we are going to have a, a big problem.

[00:20:31] We’re going to have a big social problem where people are no longer able to interact with each other, um, as humans, right? Because the communities 

[00:20:40] Clément: kind of like no longer physical it’s just online. There’s no. 

[00:20:45] Chris: And also people are, um, even unable to. Communication is breaking down so much that it’s like, people don’t even know how to relate and interact with each other without being triggered or triggering someone else and not knowing how to be in that and feel that.

[00:21:05] And, um, yeah, I think it’s a real problem. And then with the instant gratification, it’s like, I think there’s some level of breaking point in each individual when they realize like, oh, I can’t just have it my way all the time right now in this moment. Oh, I want this person to change for me, but they’re not.

[00:21:25] And people keep trying to do it until they reached the point to the, where they realized like, oh, this isn’t really how this works. I’ve been trying for a long time. And sometimes people will succumb to it and they will give me what I want. And so this is part of like the stuff we do an inner child development of like, what happened when you cried, because you didn’t get the candy.

[00:21:46] Did mom give it to you? Or did she not? And so this, all this stuff is really, really important. And, um, yeah, with instant gratification, we know that most things that are uncomfortable for us in the short term, uncomfortable in our system, they don’t feel good. Maybe a little are good for us in the longterm and the exact opposite.

[00:22:09] If it’s comfortable for us now, it’s likely not good for us in some way in the long-term. And we’re just in this constant pursuit of comfort and ease and it already is, but will continue to cause more and more problems physically, emotionally, mentally, um, It’s 

[00:22:29] Clément: such a, it’s such a big challenge. Uh, you know, I mean, even I have challenges with, with it.

[00:22:33] I am, I would say quite addicted to social media, just because of the fact that it’s so clever. So, you know, taking advantage of your, of your, your biases and, you know, your, your heart, your biological wiring. And, um, I, I forced myself to do the things that are not comfortable right now, but it is a struggle sometimes to do it.

[00:22:55] But, but like you said, if you’ve got some experience, it’s a little bit easier, what I think might help younger people. And this is just a theory that I thought of right now is you were talking about things in a way that alluded to some kind of new rope plasticity, like where you’ve got, you’ve got not just one thing that you’ve kind of learned, but a few, and you know, the more things you learn, like let’s say, play on the piano or learning a new lab.

[00:23:23] You are creating some kind of neuro-plasticity. And I think that younger generations are more generally kind of skilled. Like they’ve got a bit of skill and there’s a bit of skill in that, but it’s going to lie. So the interesting thing would be to see if you can get rid of the anxiety that’s caused.

[00:23:40] Yeah. Maybe they’re going to be even better at crushing whatever things that they need to do, because, you know, I don’t know if Michael Schumacher would have been as good at doing the formula one, if he wasn’t a great skier, too. Right. And it’s arguable, at what point you would want to taper off those other activities because you wouldn’t be able to master your craft, but like stream.

[00:24:05] Exactly. It’s like a mastery, but like that’s an interesting thought is, is, does mastery. Only come with, you know, doing one specific thing or is there like a threshold where you have to like, get some neuroplasticity from other areas and that would be, so I do think that young kids have an advantage in a way, 

[00:24:22] Chris: perhaps.

[00:24:22] Yeah. Yeah. You know, I’ve, I’ve been very interested in that for a long time. Um, and, and my initial interest was around the physical body. And so what they’ve been showing in, in so much research is that there are much more injuries. Um, through teen years through early adulthood of kids that only played one sport because they thought they had to master it from an early age, especially the physical ones.

[00:24:54] And there’s, there’s significantly more joint injuries and back injuries and ankle and knees and hips and shoulders. Um, because it’s almost like we’re only training that one thing. And if, and if. Misstep one way. Boom. There it goes. But the benefit of doing multiple things is it builds a solid foundation when you want the foundation to be built at the beginning.

[00:25:20] And the same thing goes with our mind with, with people that are at a young age, doing a lot of different things. They’re developing all of those pathways to be really good, so that as they get more narrow later in life, they have a really strong, um, history experience of that connection. And so it’s easier for them to turn on to mastery in one thing, because they’ve greased the grooves of, of a lot of different things.

[00:25:52] Clément: Nice. Yeah. You know, uh, it’s the fucking anxiety man. That’s the thing they need to get through is that anxiety. It’s a, it’s a killer. You know, I have a, I have a friend who I interviewed for a previous podcast and his name is Hayden Wiseman. And he’s friends with, uh, Jujimufu, you know, Judy with no judging with who’s this massive guy who lifts weights.

[00:26:15] And just like with like one hand and he does backflips and things, and he’s crazy, he’s all over Instagram. And that those guys were called tricksters. Uh, I don’t know if you’re familiar with it. It’s like a martial arts form, but with lots of acrobatics in it, so you can kind of do flips and just like twirls and things.

[00:26:31] And it looks so fantastic, but usually tricksters are so well built because of the force they need to thrust themselves with. So they’re bodybuilders at the same time and Hamden got into bodybuilding recently, like competitive body. And he developed so much strength in a short space of time. I’ve never seen anything like it.

[00:26:53] And he said to me, the advantage that he has over like traditional bodybuilders is that his body and his tendons and his joints are just so solid because of all of the, you know, practical, functional movements that he’s had to put his body through. And it kind of. Dawned on me that like, I’ll probably never have that because I’ve always been an isolationist.

[00:27:15] Like I’ll do bicep curls. I’ll do like squats, but my joints aren’t getting stronger. Like maybe my muscles are, and it kind of sucks because I love the idea of having that foundation, 

[00:27:27] Chris: you know? Yeah. And they say the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now.

[00:27:37] And it’s like, um, yeah, it’s, it’s, I, I hear that from almost every person universally that does the work with me is like, wow, I wish I would have this 10 years ago, five years ago, whatever. And it’s like, yeah. And you may not have been ready for it. Then it’s like, you get to something when you’re, when you’re ready, ready to take it on.

[00:27:58] And. Yeah, that, uh, the fiscal analogy makes so much sense to people. Cause I think they can see it and see the difference. Yeah. 

[00:28:08] Clément: So you talk a lot about, uh, sovereignty. You talk a lot about personal freedom, uh, and responsibility, which is a key topic right now. I definitely want to do a lot more content around responsibility.

[00:28:23] So let’s talk about it. I mean, first maybe what we could start with would be like, how, where are we right now in terms of our society and how did we even get here? Like, there’s a lot of shit going on and I don’t fully understand it, but I know enough to say we are in a bad spot, especially in the U S and certain parts of Europe.

[00:28:46] So, um, you know, with COVID. I was like the catalyst, I think, for a lot of this. And then we saw how weak we really are as a society and how easily we can be manipulated. Um, w well, well, what are your thoughts anyway, firstly, about like, you know, COVID and everything that’s happened around it. And how did it affect you?

[00:29:06] Chris: Yeah, yeah. It’s um, first off, like it’s like. The F the first thing I always say is whenever we go into any discussion about the collective experience, that is the most complex topic we can talk about. And so I like to get really specific about what we’re talking about when we are, because one of the easiest things that happens for people is they get confused or they, they F they use their own perceptions to think we’re talking about something else.

[00:29:36] And so, um, when I’m communicating about things that are really emotionally charged for people, I like to make sure we’re, we’re clear on what we’re naming at any given time. And what I like to talk about first generally is like how we’re at the point where we are today with, um, people’s, um, how we are at the point today when it comes to individual personal responsibility of self and what we’re seeing as far as, like, how we’re and.

[00:30:10] Safety and these words that are being thrown around. Um, and I’ll start by saying that it goes back a lot further than 2020. We have been as individuals, especially in the United States, giving our power of self away for a very long time. And what I mean by that is not in a political way. So think about, um, think about personal, uh, we’ll start with something simple, like food, uh, world war two times.

[00:30:40] Uh, I think they say somewhere about 70 to 80% of the food or the produce was grown in a backyard that a family ate. Wow. Yeah. And now it’s, I don’t know what the number is now. What. 2%, 1%. I know very few people in my circles, there’s a lot, but very few average people that have gardens. Um, and so that would be an example.

[00:31:01] We started outsourcing our food to someone else. We were living, giving the power of our food and nutrition over to someone, um, money. There was no such thing as wealth management in the fifties, sixties, seventies, there was no such thing as you made decisions that you thought were best for you. And you had an understanding of the responsibility of when you got money, what to do with it, and then how to spend it intelligently for you.

[00:31:29] Now, most people don’t even know really how much they spend, uh, they only know how much they make because it’s how much they spend and maybe a little less, um, And then with anything left over, they’re giving it away to someone else to say, Hey, deal with this. Cause I don’t want the responsibility of handling it.

[00:31:49] We’re doing, we’ve been doing it with our, our, our medical decisions. Um, it’s what I hear that, um, it saddens me more than anything is that people believe that there’s all of these individuals outside of themselves. Most that don’t even know who they are or anything about them, that people are thinking that they know better.

[00:32:12] What’s good for their body than they do. And I’m not getting into anything political here. I’m just saying that like we all, when we start taking responsibility for knowing what’s happening in our body and what affects it and how we can improve it, what, um, what harms it, we can take information in and process it much more intelligently for us.

[00:32:37] And we can say like, We don’t have to prescribe to, oh, um, the next fad diet, like, what is it like Quito, whatever, like, oh, uh, carbs are bad carbs. Okay. Eat, eat, just eat some carbs, see what happens and, and like that type of thing. Um, and same thing with, um, really any information that comes in now we can transition from the body to the mind as well.

[00:33:05] People have been outsourcing their thinking to other people. That’s a great way to say it and, and, you know, like to MSNBC all of them and you can, you can choose to do that if you want, but how is it working out for you as always? My question is like, is your life better by doing that? And what I see is, is unequivocally unequivocably for myself.

[00:33:30] When I take information in, I process it through my filters. I understand that I have biases and I try to be aware of as many of my biases as I, as I can. And then I make a decision that’s best for me. I can stand in that decision very confidently and say, yeah, I’ve, I’ve actually gone through all of this.

[00:33:49] And as new information comes in, I’ll let that process back through. And maybe a new decisions made. We’re not doing that right now. We’re not doing that. And unfortunately, people are excepting decisions being made for them without processing them through their own filters of what’s best for them. And I think it’s, it’s really danger, dangerous to the individual and anything that’s dangerous to the individual is dangerous to the collective.

[00:34:18] And so the more and vice versa. The more we can know what’s best for us. Take individual responsibility and make choices that are best for us. That will be better for the collective. I know people aren’t thinking that way, because they’re only thinking in linearly linear binary decisions of like everyone needs to stay inside so that everyone is safer.

[00:34:42] Oh, we’re only looking at, from where one very narrow point of view, do we actually know that? No, we don’t. We believed it for a short time and some people are still very much believing it. But if you look at filter it through the history of humanity, yeah. Maybe if you stay inside in a cave, in a dark room and you don’t have contact with anything or any that, that may, then you’re never going to catch it for a period of time.

[00:35:13] Right. But your life for the very short time that it lives is going to be very miserable and it’s not going to be. And so well, I 

[00:35:23] Clément: mean, there’s a lot of arguments too about, well, you get vitamin D from the sunlight you get, like, it doesn’t really transmit easily outside outdoors. Uh, parks are closed, uh, playgrounds, um, socializing is just reduced.

[00:35:37] Uh, there’s a lot of negatives to it and I don’t want to bring us into the whole, but you know what I mean? Like it’s, there is a lot to that right there. 

[00:35:45] Chris: The work that I do, it’s all in what’s happening inside of people. And so when I hear the effects of what’s happening outside, Happening inside on B.

[00:35:56] When I hear what people are experiencing as a result of this, um, our, our mental health issue, especially in this country, there was already probably one of the biggest issues that we were facing that wasn’t being acknowledged is going to be exponential. The work I do is specifically in inner, uh, in, in childhood development and what is missing, what are unhealthy.

[00:36:23] And literally we are, we are suppressing some of the most important things about childhood development and we’re not allowing them to happen. So, okay. We already had children that weren’t getting the development they needed because of screens and technology. And now we’re adding in the biological things, the even more social things, the fear, um, the conditioning people to be afraid of other people and children to be afraid of other humans.

[00:36:52] It’s a dangerous thing. And I’m not saying that individual decisions are not useful for a period of time to get through catastrophic events. But like, I think we have to look at this a little bit different at this point, this isn’t two weeks. This is like, we’re, we’re creating a new society with the decisions we’re making today.

[00:37:14] And we have to ask ourselves, are we actually accepting this? Despite even despite what we may believe there to be a risk in the short term, maybe, uh, I 

[00:37:27] Clément: feel guilty in the sense that, well, I had COVID, you know, very early on actually, you know, it didn’t affect me much. I, I had very little if any symptoms, so I, I was one of the lucky ones.

[00:37:40] In fact, it’s just so turns out, you know, I guess most people are one of the lucky ones, but I didn’t have any symptoms. And I was against the vaccine. I, I knew what was happening. I knew what was kind of coming, you know, and, and these mandates that are now being talked about and really pushed heavily. And I feel guilty because I got the vaccine.

[00:38:00] I feel guilty that I chose my own preferences of travel and having fun and experiencing things. And even, even to the point of like, okay, I want to do business as well. Right. And I want to travel and do business. I feel slightly guilty that I gave in because the more people that give into this, the more it possible, it becomes to just have people do the things that they don’t want to do.

[00:38:25] Um, and, and, and, and we do need to make a stand to, to some degree. Like, I, I, uh, it, but then it’s, it becomes, definitely becomes very political because now you’re talking about. Okay. How do we, how do we meet in the middle somewhere? Like, you’ve got a lot of good arguments for protecting people around you, but then you’ve also got incredibly good arguments for, let’s not destroy everything just because of this one virus.

[00:38:54] Chris: And like, 

[00:38:55] Clément: so I feel, I feel pretty terrible. 

[00:38:58] Chris: Yeah. And it’s like, if, if we took the sensitivity around the specific issue out of play, like of, of this being, COVID this specific thing, and we compared it to anything in our past, like, we’ve seen things like this before, and yet we’ve made decisions differently.

[00:39:17] And when we’ve made decisions that were similar to this, people didn’t accept it. And. I think that the, you made a, you made a really good point cause I’ve actually done a lot of contemplation around like the, the vaccination topic. And I think one of the most empowerful things, cause I study identity work as well.

[00:39:41] And so one of the most important things that’s happening is in this, this, um, discussion and this very fast pushing and mandating of this shot is in my opinion, getting people to the point to where they identify with having it or not having it. And because it’s something that you can’t technically go back on, it’s now a part of your concrete identity and I human psychology.

[00:40:13] We want to be a part of the, the winning team, the community. We want to be a part of the majority that is in agreeance. And so I think there’s a rapid push. But what people fail to realize is that even things like that is our identities are fluid and we never have to identify with those decisions. Right.

[00:40:37] I don’t, 

[00:40:37] Clément: I don’t ever identify with my polio vaccine. 

[00:40:39] Chris: Exactly. And so that’s the biggest point that I think is important because if we had a year ago said that, okay, we made some decisions, we made some decisions for everyone. We thought they were in the best interest of everyone. There’s a lot of new information.

[00:40:58] There’s a lot of new studies and there’s just the observation of what’s happening in the world. If we could have said, like, I don’t like maybe it was right at the time and now we have more information. We can make better decisions. We can change the identity of what’s happening. Yes. Uh, I’m not going to say like, why I think that didn’t happen, but it didn’t happen.

[00:41:22] We got so stuck that this is the way and so committed in our individual identities and our identities of the collective that like, we have to keep going down this way because to admit to change directions would be to admit that we were wrong about something and no one likes to be wrong, but it’s not being wrong.

[00:41:42] That’s what I like to say. It’s, we’re just getting more data every moment and we can always make better decisions. It’s learning. And it’s like, this 

[00:41:51] Clément: is an interesting, uh, this is an interesting point, not just for politics and leadership, but also for like personal growth. If you are unable to publicly admit that you made a mistake, you are shooting yourself in the foot twice.

[00:42:06] Not only are you like, okay, you think you’re protecting yourself? But your, I think what happens is you first, you prevent that growth from actually taking place, at least on a conscious level, subconsciously you might change the way you do things, but consciously you’re very stubborn about it. And then on the second, uh, the second thing is you’re looking like an idiot 

[00:42:29] Chris: and people.

[00:42:31] Yeah. And to admit, to, to, to look at yourself in the mirror and to say that like mistakes have not been met and made in this process is I think lying to yourself. I think it’s becoming so obvious that we’re mistakes were made and that’s fine. I think as humans, we can accept and forgive like, oh, people are always doing their best when we make decisions.

[00:42:56] But when we commit to them, knowing that they may not be right going forward from this moment forward, and then we try to defend them. It’s like, we’re starting to see right through it. Man, can you really support that anymore? And, um, I think that, uh, it’s becoming harder and harder and harder and harder to trust what is being forced, because why would something be forced if it was, if it was 

[00:43:32] Clément: really, truly 

[00:43:32] Chris: wanted and needed?

[00:43:34] Like if we just asked ourselves that question, if as individuals, we truly believed in all the decisions being made, why would there be so much pushback? Why would it need to be under literal physical force in some cases, history, if 

[00:43:54] Clément: you’ve, if you’ve seen the comments on Instagram and YouTube, you you’ll know the there’s a, there’s a certain level of animosity between both sides of the spectrum.

[00:44:03] It’s a very easy argument to make. If you’re identified, like you say, with either or politics. Uh, so I think we’re at the point now where it’s really difficult to get through to people, but, but, but we, we, what I think is happening is, and by the way, there’s a fourth matrix movie coming out. It couldn’t be the, couldn’t be a better time for that to happen, right?

[00:44:24] Cause we need that. We need that red pill ASAP. Um, and I think the red pill in our reality is conversations like this, where we can freely discuss things without that 32nd requirement on public television, where you get cut off and you get ridiculed. If you’re making a point that’s against the narrative, we need more long form conversations.

[00:44:46] We need to build communities like I’m going to talk about your community. Um, but you know, people like yourself, people like Russell brand who are really using their platform to, to, to kind of like shift consciousness away from mainstream and towards you see the red pill, I think is alternative media.

[00:45:07] And obviously there’s stuff in alternative media. That’s just like, I don’t know if you’re on, you know, I think 

[00:45:12] Chris: there’s a full spectrum. 

[00:45:14] Clément: There’s a full spectrum. And so with critical, uh, with, with these critical thinking skills, you know, that may be, people are lacking, but can be taught. I think we can be adults and make good decisions for ourselves based on everything we have at hand.

[00:45:32] But I think it gets to the, you got to get to the point where people are willing to take that red pill and the red pill has been made to look so woo and crazy. If you were to ever even consider believing some of the things that are outside of the mainstream, that’s so many people have problems actually taking that first step.

[00:45:51] Yeah. 

[00:45:51] Chris: And I’m, and I’m, I’m personally really grateful. I say this almost every day, like when I’m doing my gratitude practice, how grateful I was that I don’t say it this way, but I took the red pill before. Before 2020, I took the red pill. And so I was already thinking just in, in my training back in the day, I would always view things like if the majority of culture is saying, something’s good for me, it’s probably not good for me.

[00:46:19] And I’m going to look really hard at it, and I’m going to make a decision for myself. And, um, and I also not. And if you really look at issue by issue, and so I already was like really counterculture in my behavior, um, not to the point of like disruption or harming other people. But like, I was just choosing different things for myself.

[00:46:45] You were, you 

[00:46:46] Clément: were a healthy rebellious. 

[00:46:47] Chris: Exactly, exactly. And, um, the way people are articulating, like you said, Russell brand and their. Communicating so openly and the invitation for people to use their critical thinking, I think is so powerful. And what I’ve been contemplating recently, because I went through a really strong period of frustration and even anger with, with, with the whole population of like, why, why are we not thinking?

[00:47:20] And I was truly angry and it was really, it was eating me up inside. I was like, why are we not thinking and what I’ve come to like in a lot of contemplation on this is that it’s not that anyone is stupid. In fact, I think we’re so intelligent of a species individually and collectively, we have critical thinking skills.

[00:47:43] However, when we are in a state of overwhelmed, triggered fear, those turn off. I suppose design it’s like, if you are in real danger, you’re hanging from a cliff. You’re being chased by a wilding. I’ve been charged by a grizzly before you don’t have time to think you literally the adrenaline floods and you make, I assume it 

[00:48:11] Clément: went well because you’re still here.

[00:48:12] Yeah. 

[00:48:14] Chris: Fortunately it went after the animal and not after me. Um, wow. Yeah. Well 

[00:48:20] Clément: at least we didn’t have a 

[00:48:20] Chris: Revenant scene. Yeah. Yeah. Those are, those are re uh, I mean, and that’s, that’s the other thing is we’ve gotten, so I won’t go down. This I’ll stay on the critical thinking, but we’ve gotten so detached from what death really is that people, um, really don’t have much of an experience with it and let alone in everyday experience, which was the majority of human.

[00:48:45] Uh, the majority of our human history have had really direct almost daily regular experience with death in some way. That’s a really good point, actually. Yes. And I think that’s a really big problem of what’s happening because all the decisions are to avoid death and not to, 

[00:49:01] Clément: but so we don’t have a relationship with it.

[00:49:03] So we’re so fucking scared, 

[00:49:04] Chris: very much misunderstanding. And a lot of my experiences that I put myself into, um, give me a really direct and different connection with death than I think a lot of people have in a different, my understanding of what happens after death, in my beliefs around it, or that lead me to not really fear it, but respect and admire it so much that I live a full life.

[00:49:29] Um, but to get off the definite death thing and back to the critical thinking is that by design, by being in this overwhelmed triggered emotional, charged, fierce. We don’t have access to the things that we need to get us out of it. And so the only thing that will get us out of that sympathetic stressed, overwhelmed fight or flight state is to stop and slow down, breathe and breathe slowly and breathe slowly.

[00:50:06] And many people will need to do a lot of this because they’re very overwhelmed because what that does is that calms the nervous system down. It, it starts to flip it back to the parasympathetic, which is our rest and recovery and recharge. And when we’re in that we realize, oh shit, we’re not actually in this like chaos danger.

[00:50:29] I’m not currently unsafe in this one moment right now. And that’s an important switch. Cause if I, if I’m living my life thinking I’m in immediate danger at every moment, my decisions are going to be drastically. Then, if I’m realizing, okay, I’m safe. I can process what’s happening. There’s no immediate danger.

[00:50:50] Okay. Like it’s all happening 

[00:50:52] Clément: in our minds. We just, we’re driving this, this narrative that there’s something to be running away from all the time. 

[00:50:57] Chris: And it’s in our mind, that’s the only place that fear happens is in the mind and people will argue there’s danger, but there’s always danger. Most of us, especially if we have access to screens and we live in the first world, we don’t live in immediate danger every day.

[00:51:17] There are people that do, don’t get me wrong, like with what’s happening in the middle east right now. Like people are in real danger every day. But oftentimes not the ones that are arguing about it, not the ones that are feeling unsafe in every moment. So there’s a difference between feeling unsafe in the body, which is what we do when we’re in.

[00:51:37] And being in real immediate danger when you’re being charged by Chrisley or hanging from a cliff or getting pushed, held under by a wave, which has happened to me as well. So while surfing, just being held under tossed and tossed and tossed, like that’s real immediate danger being stuck up at gunpoint, immediate danger.

[00:51:55] And you need the responses in those moments to kick in. But as soon as you get out of them, they need to switch back to our normal state, which is relaxed and calm and critical. And most people aren’t allowing themselves to do that. And so this is a 

[00:52:16] Clément: weakness, right? When, when people are thinking it’s a weakness to slow down, stop to take 

[00:52:21] Chris: a day off.

[00:52:22] I think that is a that’s culturally conditioned, for sure. It’s, it’s a very. Masculine principle to continue to go and push and push and push, and there’s a value in it, but there’s just as much an equal value in the resting and taking a step back and the observing the actions we’re taking. So we know are the actions we’re taking actually the best ones.

[00:52:46] And so that slowing down allows us to create separation from what’s actually happening. And in that separation, we can see it differently. It’s like a fish in a water in the water cannot explain what water is. It’s only until it jumps out of the water. It’s like, whoa. And that’s what we can do ourselves.

[00:53:05] When we take ourselves out of the situation and we observe ourselves and we be like, wow, look at how we’re acting. Look at how we’re speaking, looking at how we’re interacting with other human beings. Look at how we’re thinking. And if you can really take a step back and look at those things, And say, yeah, I’m really happy.

[00:53:27] Um, I’m like fully like content satisfied. I believe like I’m gonna keep doing that then great zoom back in and keep doing them. But I imagine most people when they zoom out, if they just keep zooming out and they’re slowed down and they’re breathing, they’ll realize like, uh, wow, I didn’t even realize I’ve been doing this.

[00:53:48] I didn’t even realize my head’s been down. And I’ve just been in this loop. I didn’t even realize I was thinking these heinous thoughts about another human being. 

[00:53:58] Clément: That’s why I think it’s important to do it on a schedule. Right. It’s important to schedule your rest and kind of reflection. And I think for the best of us, well, maybe not the best of us, but for the people who take this the most seriously, that’s where the routine, the daily routine comes in, where you have like that meditative time to just sit and or whatever it is you’d like to do where you can just cut your mind off from all the shit and really.

[00:54:25] Reset yourself. I don’t do it all the time, but I recognize how important it is when I do it makes a big difference. When I broke up with my ex-girlfriend, I was so distraught and I decided to take a month out, literally a month out in Malaysia. I had just got somewhere. I wasn’t even a familiar with. I had no idea what to expect.

[00:54:47] I sat not all day, but I sat in the mornings in the evenings. Yeah. Stared out into the distance. And it changed me so much. Like I can’t, if anyone’s listening to this thinking, there’s no way I could do that. Well, you don’t have to go to Malaysia, but if you just do that practice, it will change your perspective and your energy and your everything.

[00:55:10] It can change everything. Actually. I think personally, 

[00:55:13] Chris: yeah, that’s um, such a great point. It’s all free and we all have access to it. My favorite is nature. I’m actually going to a backpack in Zion next week for, for just about a long weekend or a week. And there’s something that happens when we eliminate all of the things that are consuming us.

[00:55:33] Like you said, you just see differently. 

[00:55:36] Clément: Are you going to leave your phone? Are you going to, I will not 

[00:55:38] Chris: have my phone off. No, I will not have my phone on. Yeah. And, um, Completely disconnected. It’s hard. It is the same thing I did when I, when I went to the desert for burning man last week. I mean, um, I did tune in, I checked in one time, um, but checked right back out and, um, realized in that moment, um, how much I manage on a daily basis.

[00:56:04] Cause there was like thousand notifications across all these different applications and all these emails. And I was like, whoa. I was like, it’s only been five days.

[00:56:16] And then the immediate relief of just saying no. Turning it off. And then going back to being present in the moment with the people that I was with was the most relieving thing ever. It’s crazy how much power 

[00:56:31] Clément: we give to things that aren’t even that important. Like you can trick yourself into thinking, I gotta respond to this.

[00:56:38] I gotta get in touch with this person. I gotta, and then you take, let’s say, for example, you lost your phone or let’s say, for example, something happened and you just couldn’t do it. You would quickly realize how unimportant those things actually were. Or someone in the family passes away. God forbid.

[00:56:52] Right? I mean, these are the things that wake you up. And so wake yourself up before you woke up. Right? I say that a lot. I say die before you die, because if you don’t, you’re going to live in fear and you’re going to do, you know, not do the things you want to do. 

[00:57:07] Chris: The, the, you said that die before you die.

[00:57:09] That’s one of the practices, a mentor gave me as a meditation where I literally experienced myself on my death bed. And in that moment, if you can put yourself. All of the BS fades away and you realize what’s really important. And in that practice, you can continuously remind yourself, oh, I’m going to call my mom today.

[00:57:32] I haven’t talked to her for a couple of days. I want to tell her, I love her. I’m going to, I’m going to do this. I’m gonna, whatever it is I’m going to, I’m going to cancel this thing that I didn’t even want to do. And I’m gonna take this data myself, whatever it is. But you just get this regular check-in of like, what’s really important here.

[00:57:49] And, and 99% of the stuff we’re worrying about thinking about even doing in our lives is not actually important, at least that’s what can you speak to me a little 

[00:58:01] Clément: bit about, you know, because you mentioned that it’s something that you do, uh, within your cam and, uh, w tell me about what you’re, you’re you’re doing with your business and how you’re helping people.

[00:58:13] I believe it’s called what training camp for the soul. And you run it with, 

[00:58:15] Chris: uh, with a lady. Yeah. Yeah. The founder. Uh, she’s my business partner and we, we co-facilitate together and, um, great partnership of masculine, feminine, and, and, um, she has a long history in this world of healing. And I have a long history in the world of business and coaching.

[00:58:34] And so we really work well together. Um, we, like I said, at the beginning, we have a very like structured way where we can take people through and we can help them identify the things that are truly holding them back in their life because there’s levels to the awareness. And most people are only aware at the level of the story they’re telling themselves.

[00:59:01] And once we start asking a few questions, we get one layer deeper and one layer deeper. And eventually we, we get to at least the layer of where did this come from? And it’s usually mother and father are the primary drivers of childhood development either they were there or they weren’t there and they represent different things in development.

[00:59:21] Um, but we get to those because in that moment where you realize, oh, this isn’t who I am, this is just some thing that I learned to be like a story. And 100% of who we are, we learned to be 100% of the way we see the world we learned that’s the way the world is. And so that story keeps that story of the way you are and the way the world is keeps getting spoonfed to you every day, every moment.

[00:59:57] And you’re taking it all in by what you see, what you hear, what you feel, and it’s all getting taken in. And before, you know it, you just unconsciously believe. I’m this way. Other people are this way, the world is this way. And like we were talking about identity. People just believe that’s the way it is.

[01:00:20] And then we start peeling back the layers and that little bit of like cracking the window open of saying, oh, that’s not actually the way it is. That’s not truth. That’s just been my truth for my lifetime, because that’s what I learned. And then it kind of gives a little bit of opportunity. And then we dive in and we pull out the root of where that came from.

[01:00:42] That’s that’s a really important part of the process that gets missed in a lot of personal development is it’s got to come from the root of whenever this first got embedded in the body. When did this first become a pattern and or most, is 

[01:00:58] Clément: it like the further down you go, generally speaking. The harder it is to address or can you get over these things like an epiphany 

[01:01:08] Chris: instantly?

[01:01:09] Yeah. And usually how it works is it’s, it’s oftentimes easier to start with things that are less emotionally attached. Um, the deeper it is, the more resistance there’s going to be to going into it, the harder to get exactly. Right, exactly. Right. And so it’s all the way that we do it is incredibly, it’s actually very slow and very gentle.

[01:01:36] And we go at the pace of the client, not the other way around, I’ve been in a lot of healing and retreat experiences where it’s very like forced and you like force yourself into like, get angry. Yeah. And this is a lot more of like, what’s there for you. And it’s allows them to kind of dig through their own stuff at the pace they feel comfortable in safety.

[01:02:01] And then we just help them navigate to it and, and everyone has the capacity to do it. That’s why, like, I encourage people. Everyone has the capacity, but little to, no one was taught how to do this. We weren’t taught how to go beyond the conscious mind and start asking some really simple questions and the deeper we go, the simpler the beliefs get.

[01:02:26] And what I mean by that is like, at the very core, uh, belief of I’m not good enough, or I’m just, I’m not enough or I’m inherently broken. Or if, if I don’t achieve, I won’t be loved or others will abandon me like that that’s me. That was my one of mine. Typically. I still have it to a certain degree. Yeah.

[01:02:51] And for sure. And that’s the, that’s the thing is like, it’s, it’s not to be. Fixed. That’s the, that’s the other thing we really talk about in our program, it’s not to be fixed. It’s about loving that part of yourself and that little child that was abandoned and he needed something differently and we help people close the loop on that and teach them how to reparent themselves when it comes up in your adult life.

[01:03:17] So when this comes up, you’re like, oh, there’s that abandonment thing again, it’s not that it’s necessarily gonna forever disappear, but there’s less attachment. And you now have tools. You’re like, oh, there’s that thing. Okay, cool. Like, I know I’m making a story up about my girlfriend here. She’s not going to abandon me.

[01:03:35] Cool. She’s here. This is just my shit. And so you can, you can change your behavior. Like the actions with the new belief. And this is where we started talking about the first two phases of, of, of the ego. And then the, just the practice of doing it. The third phases, when you do the practice enough times, like when you start rewriting the abandonment story of like, no, others are there for me, others for me, um, I trust others, whatever it is.

[01:04:05] Do 

[01:04:06] Clément: you need to have like, sorry to interrupt, but like, cause I know you’re on a flow here, but do you need to have like community feedback for specific like that specifically? Because I would imagine that it’s, that’s the fear of abandonment ties directly into community. Like if you have that feedback, oh, they really are there for me.

[01:04:22] Cause they’re saying that effort is showing me that, that there for me. But if you don’t have that then, so I would imagine there’s some components here you need to address, 

[01:04:29] Chris: uh, a hundred percent. It’s very, very helpful to have like every one around us is a mirror for our own stuff. And so we’re seeing it reflected back to us.

[01:04:40] If we’re paying attention. Um, there’s two levels to the development though. There’s um, there’s the self-development and then there’s the development, as it relates to others and community. And like you’re saying like that abandonment might be tied to other people. So the first level of self has to be really strong before we can really start dealing with the others, because if we start dealing with the other stuff and we’re not strong enough in ourself, we’re going to collapse, we’re going to close, we’re going to contract and it’s not going to work.

[01:05:15] And that’s why a lot of people come into our work because of relationship problems or something with their parents or something with their partner, the husband, or the wife or their kids. And it’s a lot of times about relationships, maybe relationship to money or relationship to their career. But then we dig one layer deeper and there’s something that’s in the self that first needs to be addressed.

[01:05:38] Clément: Would you say that mixing with others. Is equally as difficult for people who are suffering from these belief systems that are erroneous belief systems in, in both the introverted people and the extroverted people, because extroverted people, you could kind of argue, oh, they’ve got these people skills, but I don’t know if that’s necessarily true.

[01:06:03] Like, I think you could have it from both sides. 

[01:06:06] Chris: Yeah. Yeah. I don’t, I don’t see any material difference between that, that those personality types, because this goes deeper than those behaviors. Um, they’re, they, it goes to really core belief systems and everyone has them. It’s just a matter of like, which ones are really showing up in your life, which ones are holding you back, which ones are limiting you in some way.

[01:06:30] And so, yeah, as far as introvert extrovert, I think actually extroverts probably just got more practiced in protective mechanisms on. And interact with others while not going to those places. They just created different skills and we all have protective mechanisms. Some people go inside, some people get aggressive and push back.

[01:06:54] Some people just leave their minds and their bodies there. These are all just a classic five personality patterns of protectors. But Joe Biden just walks away exactly protected from like, oh no, something’s coming up here. And we all have them. It’s like even physical ones when I’m in a conversation. And I, I like crossed my arms and I kind of like contract.

[01:07:17] That’s a, that’s a physical protective mechanism. I’m literally covering my vitals and cause I don’t feel safe in this. And so we that’s why whenever 

[01:07:26] Clément: I talk to anyone, I just open my eyes 

[01:07:30] Chris: and that’s um, it’s, it seems really silly, but the, the body. Patterns the emotions and the mind and the mind patterns, the body and the emotion, and they all intertwined.

[01:07:45] And so we teach people the full spectrum. So we teach people the physicality of opening your body and to notice what’s happening in your body when you’re emotionally triggered or charged, when this happens, what do you feel in your body? Because it’s all this feedback loop. And when we can identify and interrupt the feedback loop, we can change it.

[01:08:08] But until we can 

[01:08:09] Clément: and answer your question on that triggered issue. Cause we’ve, we’ve, we’ve had that word peer a couple of times, a few times in this conversation that was never really a word before last year. What are your thoughts about. You know, I think it’s Disney, but it might be Netflix too. It says there’s a trigger warning.

[01:08:29] And you know, you may get triggered by this as trigger warnings now for things. Do you think that’s necessary? Do you think that’s something good or is that 

[01:08:38] Chris: so is that 

[01:08:39] Clément: making things a little 

[01:08:40] Chris: worse? I believe it is because of the nature of my work and, and, and what I know to be true is that everyone has the capacity to feel their own emotions.

[01:08:52] However, people less and less are willing to do that. And so the more I’m unwilling to feel what’s happening inside of me, the more I require other people around me to not trigger me. 

[01:09:09] Clément: So you’re retreating. It’s, it’s actually, it’s like an, it’s an enabler. It is, it is. We’re being warned in advance of something that we should be able to deal with.

[01:09:19] Chris: It’s saying, and like th there’s exceptions to that, like there’s, there’s things that you can see and you can’t unsee and traumatic things, but like the, the level that we’re at is, is 

[01:09:32] Clément: political things might 

[01:09:33] Chris: trigger anything, anything we’re making up words now that trigger, like we’re making up experiences that people are saying they’re triggered for it because, and, and there’s a long story of like, why this happens.

[01:09:45] There’s something that happens in the development of those people. They put themselves in a role that there must be a villain to play their role. And it’s, it’s now getting to the point to where it’s culturally acceptable to be a victim, to your experience. And I have compassion for that when people are in it, but it’s also, there is always an opportunity to transcend that triangle of perpetrator victim and, and, and, uh, Um, and everyone is their own at, at the point, which they’re adults, they are their own parents.

[01:10:28] Now they are their own hero. They are required to be responsible for their emotions to be a truly mature adult. However, people are, are more and more unwilling to do it. And so they’re now at the point of expecting other people it’s not even anymore, it’s an exp expectation that you must change your life because I cannot handle what’s happening inside of me.

[01:10:58] That’s dangerous because how, cause what’s the line on that? We’re seeing the law, we’re literally in it right now. We’re, we’re collectively determining what’s the line of telling everyone else how to behave, act and what to do with their body, because I don’t know how to take care of mine. A dangerous path and it starts with, it starts with words and it starts with the emotions.

[01:11:26] And, um, now we’re seeing it transcend into institutions. 

[01:11:33] Clément: Yeah. Government. Exactly. Yeah. It plays perfectly to the kind of, you know, to that kind of transfer transfer of power. But again, not to dive into the whole political argument, but it’s, I don’t think people realize how dangerous this actually 

[01:11:47] Chris: really is.

[01:11:48] And I think it’s actually helpful too, to not dive into the politics of it, to understand the true humanity of, of what’s happening. And I think the problem is, is people are too quick to go into the specific issues or the specific talking points that they miss. The level that’s much deeper than that.

[01:12:12] That’s like much more important than that. Um, Like the 

[01:12:17] Clément: quality of your lives and the quality of the lives of the people around you are saying. Yeah. Yeah. Your family, for example. I mean, I wanted to ask you this a little earlier. I kind of missed my opportunity, but I guess I might just might as well just ask it now.

[01:12:28] Um, individualism, do you think it’s kind of lost its I mean, in many ways. I, I, I love my individual freedom, right? Of course. But I can see now looking back and with at least the, uh, contrast in, in social behavior, how damaging too much of a push for individualism is becoming. And I, you know, how, how do you kind of balance in your life, your needs for individual freedom and then the needs for your family and your community.

[01:13:09] Chris: It’s an amazing conversation. At the root of you, you mentioned Ken Wilber earlier. Um, he does the inner integral work and he wrote a book called the theory of everything. And in it, it explains a lot of different maps and models, um, that talk about the development of humans and explains a lot, honestly, but it’s a very like deep, deep, heavy book.

[01:13:33] He’s a deep 

[01:13:35] Clément: grace and grit made me cry. Like I didn’t know what to 

[01:13:37] Chris: do after reading that book, credible work. And he’s getting downloads from like intelligence far beyond, like what most people have access to. And so these aren’t made up things. These are, he took a bunch of different models from all of these psychology and religion and all these things and just mapped, um, a development of we’ll call it humans.

[01:13:59] And it applies to both individuals and collective and used one of the models that gets referenced a lot of spiral dynamics and. It’s a, it’s how we develop from pure survival towards like enlightenment consciousness and all of the predictable stages that happen along the way, as we spiral up to that and we do it as an individual and we do it as a society.

[01:14:23] And what happens is every time we spiral to the next one, we spiral from individual to collective and collective to individual collective to ensure we’re kind of like almost like, um, we’re what are those things called? The, that swing back and forth pendulum we’re pendulum swing from one to the other and one to the other.

[01:14:43] And what happens is, is when you leave one, initially you have to reject a lot of the things of the reasons why you’re in that one to get to the next level. So you have 

[01:14:55] to 

[01:14:55] Clément: re with you because I’m trying to get my head around it too. I’m sure other people listening. Is that because we have individual thought and experience and we then need to share that with the collective so that we can all benefit and grow together.

[01:15:11] Exactly, exactly. Vice versa. I guess 

[01:15:14] Chris: it’s in itself is a paradox because the individual is it’s like the individual is the drop of water in the sea. The drop is the sea and the sea is the drop of water. And so we’re all a part of the holistic collective, but also as individual we have individual needs.

[01:15:43] And so they can appear at times in conflict, but ultimately they are, they are the same thing. And. The paradox is holding both at the same time and determining like which one? Okay. So one may be weighing 1% in one direction of favor. How important is that? And do I need to swing it back the other way?

[01:16:10] What’s the most important thing in this moment? And here’s the part of like forgiveness is that it’s impossible to know because the story’s still being written. And so if we’re caught up in being right about our decisions, we can largely put those the right and the wrong conversation down. And the way I, the way I, um, explain that is natural law is if we are not harming ourselves or other, other people, other sentient beings, like that is basically the foundation of like natural law.

[01:16:49] And so if we’re not doing. That’s right and wrong right there, period. We’re not harming other people forcing other people. Okay. We’re good. The rest is subjective and we’re still figuring it out. And the subjective part comes from our personal experience, what we’ve learned over a lifetime. And if you believe it, past lifetimes and other influences.

[01:17:17] And so we have all of these eyes that we’re seeing through, but every set of eyes on this planet is seeing through a different lens. And that’s the individual part. And what, what is the most benefit to us as individuals is to communicate and be open to other perspectives so that when you come, when you hear, like, when we’re having this conversation, you’re hearing my perspective and I’m hearing yours.

[01:17:44] And what we’re essentially doing is we have this bucket of perspective. And I now have your perspective on this issue in my bucket, and I’m going to talk to someone else about it and I’m going to put it in my bucket and you might take mine and put it in your bucket. And it’s not to prove that yours is right or mind’s right.

[01:18:00] Or anyone else’s right. But the more we collect in our buckets, the more broad our perspective can be, and that’s all data. But when we reject every other perspective, how broad is ours, it’s very narrow and we can’t see. And so what we believe to be good for us and good for the collective is only based on a very narrow view.

[01:18:25] So the goal isn’t actually narrowing our, our opinions and perspectives. The goal really should be to take in as much as we can. Yeah. And I, and I’ve, I admittedly over my development have favored one over the other. And it’s all very, like I said, it’s all very predictable based on what phase of development you’re in.

[01:18:52] They call the memes and what meme you’re in. There’s different value sets and there’s different challenges. And I’ve, I’ve very predictably gone through those. And I can recall the moments where I would start to break to the other one. And, and, and so it’s, again, it’s not to hold one to a higher degree isn’t right or wrong.

[01:19:15] It’s just to accept where I’m at. And to know that one, isn’t more important to the other there. In fact, this part of the same thing. Um, and that’s hard for people to understand that are still believing that are still either. Uh, realistically or believing they’re still meeting their minimum safety needs.

[01:19:37] They can’t think to that. They can’t think in that capacity, like we were talking about, they don’t have access to it because they’re still in some level of survival state. So it’s not their fault. It’s by design, 

[01:19:49] Clément: right? Yeah. Uh, are you, uh, are you a fan of Dr. Jordan Peterson? 

[01:19:54] Chris: I haven’t dove too much into his work, to be honest.

[01:19:58] I it’s never called me. Um, I know some people speak highly of them. I, I can’t really speak too much. You’re either 

[01:20:06] Clément: a, a, an avid fan or you’re a, a hater. 

[01:20:12] Chris: I don’t think there’s anything in between, 

[01:20:14] Clément: but, you know, because it’s such an opinionated and, uh, he, he has, his opinions are very controversial. And, uh, and I think the reason why is because a lot of what he says triggers people to the truth, uh, and he makes a really good point that, uh, Community is, it has many mechanisms that are kind of unspoken that allow for the community flourish and grow and survive.

[01:20:45] It’s kind of like evolutionary in the sense that we figured out that there are certain things that we should and shouldn’t do if we’re able to grow and be safe and be part of a healthy collective, the moment that we withdraw from those rules or those requirements, let’s say the moment that we take ourselves out and say, sorry, I’m the most important thing in my life.

[01:21:11] And therefore what I say is what I’m going to do. Well, you know, if you look at history, you can, you can see that’s never really worked out well. In actual fact, it’s probably worked out pretty bad for people who were affected by that person and their decisions. Right. Um, and so his point is. There are things that you’re not going to, like, there are things that you’re going to think, well, this is ridiculous.

[01:21:36] Like, I don’t have time for this shit. Or, you know, this is so it’s kind of embarrassing or humiliating or, but it’s all part of an evolutionary mechanism that’s designed for the collective to survive. And if we don’t understand that, which is what’s happening now, in my opinion, we’ve lost that ability to be okay with the things that, you know, we actually need to do as part of a healthy society.

[01:22:01] Then we’re in for a breakdown of society 

[01:22:04] Chris: in one way, we’ve lost it. And in another way, it’s been weaponized it’s, it’s weaponized to say that you don’t care about the collective, unless you do this thing. And it’s like, wait a minute, wait a minute. A, is that true? No, you’re making it true by saying it that way.

[01:22:25] But also be what does this have an effect on the individual? And then by nature, what are the downstream effects on the collective because of this? So we can’t, um, 

[01:22:37] Clément: like things like, I mean, essentially this is the, the, the argument, which is why it’s so hard to reconcile the, whether you should take a vaccine on 

[01:22:44] Chris: yeah.

[01:22:44] Anything that’s, that’s mandated or forced upon someone that their behavior and it’s, there is a, that’s the reason why it’s a dance, there’s the dance of the collective and, and the trust in the collective. But what we’re seeing now very clearly is people are losing trust in the leaders or the perceived leaders of the collective.

[01:23:06] And so, because like you said, we all have intuitive senses of what’s good in the community and what keeps it alive and thriving. And intuitively people are starting to wake up to the fact that. What we’re doing is not actually intuitively great for the community. And so when we say that, like you must individually do this for the good of the collective, that’s a weapon.

[01:23:37] Clément: Yes. Right. When it’s explicitly mandated, not when it’s discussed in open and kind of collectively 

[01:23:44] Chris: agreed. And the beautiful part about community is that it collectively decides its values. So if the majority of individuals agree on values and that’s what keeps the community whole and flowing, those are the values.

[01:24:06] That is why and dating idea. Is not possible for humanity. It never works. Never has worked for the history of humans to literally control large groups of other humans. It’s because that’s going against the natural law of the community, where literally the collective is literally saying, okay, this is feeling good.

[01:24:31] This is feeling good. And then someone else’s like, say one individual or small group is like, no, we’re going to gun. So 

[01:24:38] Clément: everyone’s going to listen to me. This is why decentralization of power is driving the force behind the adoption of things like Bitcoin, because people are just, so I think, you know, a lot of people get into it because it’s, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a bull run market, but I think there’s a lot more deeper things happening.

[01:25:02] And I think the, the, the most awake of us have realized that if we’re ever going to be able to get. The ability to have that, that, that phenomena that you talk about, which is organic community adoption and decision-making, and we have to decentralize, we have take the power away from those who hold the guns and kind of give it back to the people.

[01:25:25] And I know this is another huge conversation to have, but I just wanted to touch on it because it’s, it’s, uh, it’s happening now. It’s happening right now. And I personally feel if we do bandy together, cryptocurrencies could be a good way into it. Uh, right. And I, and I, and I, I say that not because it’s profitable or anything like that, I say it just because that technology is, it could be the difference between getting handed, whatever it is that you need to survive from.

[01:25:57] Let’s say the powers of. Which has seems to be where we’re heading or being able to say, I’m going to do this with my life today. And, uh, and, and I think everyone would be happier with the, 

[01:26:10] Chris: the latter. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and like, we, I just quoted at some point, the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago.

[01:26:21] Second best time is now, um, the same applies for our decisions in this. It’s like, do you want to get so far down the road that you don’t have choices? Or do you want to start making choices now that maybe is a little uncomfortable? And like, maybe it’s, it’s maybe challenging in some ways, but you know, is, is in the long-term best interest of yourself and the collective and you’re right.

[01:26:49] I, I think that the crypto is something that plays into that. I, a friend of mine says that, uh, Bitcoin is a vote. It’s not an investment. It’s literally a vote and a different way of being. And, um, when I can objectively say like, it’s not objective, but for myself, I know. So certainly that our, our, our finance, our food, our medical systems, our education systems are all broken.

[01:27:18] They are so broken. And I believe that at my core, I don’t, I’m not saying I have the answers to it, but to change systems, we have to create better systems. We can’t just blame the systems that are existing. I didn’t even leave in the political system that one’s definitely broken too, but we have to create better governance systems that work in, in this way.

[01:27:44] This is a very new governance system for the financial system. Has absolute legs to like kick out the legs of our current financial system. It does. Well, I mean, 

[01:28:00] Clément: if you look at just, and again, I’m really diving into a little bit of detail here, but if China recently banned crypto mining and people were so worried about what that would do, because it’s never been done before, it was like unprecedented and a lot of the farms for mining, these Bitcoins, which is what drives the demand and the currency.

[01:28:22] We’re just all based in, most of them were based in China, so they removed all of them, but it didn’t really dent what was actually happening with Bitcoin. It continued to go because of that again, that adoption and that understanding that, um, well one because of the adoption and the understanding that this is the future, but two, because it was just so, I mean, this kind of like, um, I’m speaking to the strength and integrity of the actual system.

[01:28:51] They have Le it has legs. It really does have legs. It couldn’t be touched by that. So, um, so I’m very, uh, I don’t want to use a market term. I was going to say I’m very bullish about it, but I am very bullish about it. And I’m really excited to see if we can make something out 

[01:29:08] Chris: of this. Yeah, yeah, me too. And, um, I, it took me years and I’ve been in these circles for awhile.

[01:29:14] It took me years to really understand the value of it beyond just. ’cause I actually, I, I caught onto the investment or like fairly early for me. And I was like, okay, I get that. I get what’s happening here. I understand markets. And I understand the emotional drivers of markets. I was like, okay. But it took me years to really understand the viability of what’s happening right now and the real value that it can provide.

[01:29:43] Um, and, uh, yeah, I mean, I think that, that the blockchain technology and applying to one of my mentors brought up a point about like using it, even in things to track the actions and decisions of politicians to literally create real time records, unchangeable voting records of this is what this person stands for.

[01:30:05] Think about the transparency of that, because right now, people, most people only hear what they’re told to, to hear, and that changes every single. And people will even see like video clips of the words coming out of people’s mouth. That contradict what they’re saying today. And they’ll be like now, no, they don’t have the real thing.

[01:30:31] Yeah. And so, um, so like the, the way that this can be adopted to many, many, many different, uh, areas of our life, 

[01:30:40] Clément: every part of life, pretty much every valuable, well, that’s like a, that’s like an extra nugget of. Of interest here in this conversation, I guess that people got free of charge. You got a little bit of education about the, uh, Bitcoin and the crypto markets, but I think, you know, without like going further into that topic, this is a good place to kind of like taper it off.

[01:31:02] And I, I think it’s been an excellent conversation, the longest one I’ve had for awhile. And, you know, I greatly appreciate everything that you’ve shared with me today. I know it’s going to help a lot of people listen to this. Speaking of which, if they do want to follow up with you, how did they get in touch with you?

[01:31:17] Chris: Yeah, the, the ways that I would say are bastard a follow me on instagram@chrismarhefkaandthenatrainingcampforthesoul.com is my company. Uh, that’s where we do a lot of this, uh, healing and rewriting of your script and your store and your patterns, a training camp for the soul.com. Um, I’ve got a program that’s starting really soon.

[01:31:39] We’ve got a retreat in October. Uh, we’re constantly running programs. Uh, whereabouts 

[01:31:44] Clément: do you usually do your retreat? 

[01:31:47] Chris: The next one is in the next two actually are in, uh, Colorado in the Rocky mountains, outside of Denver. So, 

[01:31:55] Clément: and that’s on purpose, right? You pick a place that’s very, not 

[01:31:59] Chris: want to go to. No, I’m just kidding.

[01:32:02] It’s really beautiful. That’s secluded. We have a beautiful retreat center. It’s a, uh, a Taoist, um, uh, Taoists like, um, meditation. Place. And so it’s like very healing, very peaceful, um, and 

[01:32:18] Clément: pizza 

[01:32:18] Chris: convention room, I guess, beats a hotel convention room for, 

[01:32:24] Clément: yeah. And we’re going to sell you this at the end. Yeah.

[01:32:29] Uh, that sounds fantastic, man. Um, I think you’re changing the world with what you’re doing really genuinely think that we need more people like you and I’m fat. I’m so privileged to have met you. Thank you for 

[01:32:40] Chris: coming on. Yeah. Thank you for having me. This has been one of my favorite interviews and I do a lot of these interviews and I appreciate like really diving into this and having intelligent, articulate and open conversations about it.

[01:32:53] It’s like you said, when we can transcend the five second clips and the 32nd news articles, we can start to actually. Pull apart, the nuances of, of thought and discussion and ideas. And I think we did today and I really appreciate the opportunity to do it. 

[01:33:14] Clément: Hey, thanks for tuning in, make sure you subscribe today and you won’t miss the next episode.

[01:33:20] We covered topics like recovering from infidelity, online, dating, managing chronic anxiety, and so much more we’re on all the popular platforms. So take your pick and Ms. GST.